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	<title>Comments on: Oranges in Kashmir</title>
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	<description>media &#124; politics &#124; dissent</description>
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		<title>By: Mohamad Junaid: What Does the Chatham House Poll in Kashmir Tell Us? &#171; Kafila</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-10081</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mohamad Junaid: What Does the Chatham House Poll in Kashmir Tell Us? &#171; Kafila]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-10081</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Oranges in Kashmir: The Assembly Elections of 2008 [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Oranges in Kashmir: The Assembly Elections of 2008 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ban Ki-Moon And Kashmir &#171; ~ Kashmir ~</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4774</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ban Ki-Moon And Kashmir &#171; ~ Kashmir ~]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] is destined for a tough time on Kashmir, internationally. The recent fair elections seem to have had the least effect at the international front.    &#9654; Comment   /* 0) { [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is destined for a tough time on Kashmir, internationally. The recent fair elections seem to have had the least effect at the international front.    &#9654; Comment   /* 0) { [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Republic Day in Srinagar &#171; Kafila</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4715</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Republic Day in Srinagar &#171; Kafila]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] First? And the realisation that more voted in J&amp;K than in other states almost came would be familiar to this blog&#8217;s regular [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] First? And the realisation that more voted in J&amp;K than in other states almost came would be familiar to this blog&#8217;s regular [...]</p>
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		<title>By: KKK</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KKK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear K and others,
I have been following your comments and other reports on kashmir elections elsewhere in media with interest. I would like to make following:

1/ The people of kashmir may not like the Indian state,  but they seem also to be tired of the abstract demand of azaadi being made by seperatists, many of them are highly authoratarian, undemocratic and to a large extent religious-fundamentalist. People like geelani, Asia Andraabi, Mirwaiz, Yasin Malik etc no political agenda other than anti-India.

2/ With all its shortcomings, the democracy/voting in India allows people to engage with issues of politics in daily life. After initial euphoria, it is far more appealing than radical/violent/angey vocies of the seperatist that.

3/ This is not to deny that Indian troops have not commited human rights crime, past elections have been rigged, rape of women, dissappearences etc etc etc. The fact is that when start seeing the potential of democratic intitutions, then even if they are angry with state and aware of its past atrocities, they participate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear K and others,<br />
I have been following your comments and other reports on kashmir elections elsewhere in media with interest. I would like to make following:</p>
<p>1/ The people of kashmir may not like the Indian state,  but they seem also to be tired of the abstract demand of azaadi being made by seperatists, many of them are highly authoratarian, undemocratic and to a large extent religious-fundamentalist. People like geelani, Asia Andraabi, Mirwaiz, Yasin Malik etc no political agenda other than anti-India.</p>
<p>2/ With all its shortcomings, the democracy/voting in India allows people to engage with issues of politics in daily life. After initial euphoria, it is far more appealing than radical/violent/angey vocies of the seperatist that.</p>
<p>3/ This is not to deny that Indian troops have not commited human rights crime, past elections have been rigged, rape of women, dissappearences etc etc etc. The fact is that when start seeing the potential of democratic intitutions, then even if they are angry with state and aware of its past atrocities, they participate.</p>
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		<title>By: K</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4520</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4520</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rohit:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
I share some of your skepticism about how democratic elections with such an overwhelming military presence can be I am a little surprised by your reading of the increased number of candidates and political parties. The rise number of candidates, particularly independents and the new political parties could equally have something to do with a disgust for established parties and a desire to provide alternate voices. It would be interesting to see how many non mainstream candidates manage to win.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The only change we look forward to, is a change in the status quo – which seems to be fine with everyone but the Kashmiris. Alternate voices is a progressive term, a term that signifies change to people living in free societies; however in a state where even debating politics in schools, colleges and universities is not allowed; alternate voices, as all Kashmiris know, do not dare to come up and if they do, they do not survive. The fact that just 4 of the 517 independent alternate voices who contested won justifies that. If people wanted altenate voices, why did they not vote them to power? The major share of seats were, as was expected, won by the dynasties (NC, Congress, PDP) 
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The reason why Delhi has fewer candidates and independents could have to do with the greater bottlenecks to entry and a domination of political space by two fairly well functioning parties.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You presume the existence of bottlenecks in Delhi but not in Kashmir! The political space of Kashmir is as much dominated by major, honest to Delhi, parties than the likes of Geelani, as it is in Delhi or the other states of India.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
To be fair, the picture presented by mainstream media is that the increased turnout is because of a concern with local issues. A belief that even if the larger problems of independence or civil liberties isn’t solved, there is a possibility of getting running water.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That might have been the case for a percentage of the population – but how at all can you justify elections when the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dawn.com/2008/11/15/op.htm#1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;brains in Delhi&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://kafila.org/2008/12/31/army-wanted-abdullah-whos-surprised/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;brawns in Kashmir&lt;/a&gt; seem to decide who wins, even if we ignore the very core of the Kashmir problem - that of a desire for &#039;azadi.&#039; however difficult it may be to define &#039;azadi&#039; but it sure does not mean continuing to live with India. Some of the candidates are already crying of being used as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kashmirobserver.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=337:losers-front-cries-foul-in-polls-&amp;catid=2:local-news&amp;Itemid=3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tissue papers&lt;/a&gt;!
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Finally, there is overwhelming evidence of there being compulsion to vote but is there any evidence of these elections are being rigged (like the ones in the 80s).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Elections are rigged only when to a large extent they are held freely and fairly and the master chefs in Delhi fear ‘alternate’ voices – as they did in 1987. When you compel someone to vote, you do that not in an attempt to install a democratically elected government but in an effort to justify your presence where you should not be at all. Musharrf was voted to power in an referendum in Pakistan, as are many other dictators- that is not because he could not stay in power, but just because he needs to flash the image of ‘democracy’ throughout the world, and then the debate whether the dictator should be there at all subsidises and a new debate takes place. That is what happened to Kashmir. If it were not the elections, perhaps even I would still be writing about the protests that stormed Kashmir a few months ago.
Sometime back, the National Conference, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.risingkashmir.com/index2.php?option=com_content&amp;do_pdf=1&amp;id=9254&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ruled out any alliance&lt;/a&gt;, even though &lt;a href=&quot;http://kashmirmedia.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/sachin-pilot-farooqs-son-in-law-strengthening-the-family/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;preparations&lt;/a&gt; were being carried out for that a long time ago and we already knew who the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dawn.com/2008/11/15/op.htm#1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chief Minister&lt;/a&gt; would be, that is rigging of elections in Kashmir.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
For the entire exercise to be a sham, it would require almost everyone in public life to be part of the IB conspiracy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You would need to have lived in Kashmir to understand what living there means. The fear instilled through years of oppression can get many things done from a people and the elections being hardly the toughest. Mufi Sayeed &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kashmirobserver.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=337:losers-front-cries-foul-in-polls-&amp;catid=2:local-news&amp;Itemid=3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;claims that&lt;/a&gt; the numbers were out before the polling had even begun. Lastly, I think we of all people should be cautious of how representative bloggers are of anything but themselves.
I wish you think the same about our &#039;elected&#039; leaders in Kashmir as well. A lo

A lot about these elections will become known in time to come, but that won&#039;t effect any change - a government is installed for years to come! A look at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pSIzKHnmdw26NZKpEqYUXeA&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;stats&lt;/a&gt; also provides an interesting outlook on the exercise called &#039;elections&#039; held in Kashmir.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rohit:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I share some of your skepticism about how democratic elections with such an overwhelming military presence can be I am a little surprised by your reading of the increased number of candidates and political parties. The rise number of candidates, particularly independents and the new political parties could equally have something to do with a disgust for established parties and a desire to provide alternate voices. It would be interesting to see how many non mainstream candidates manage to win.</p></blockquote>
<p>The only change we look forward to, is a change in the status quo – which seems to be fine with everyone but the Kashmiris. Alternate voices is a progressive term, a term that signifies change to people living in free societies; however in a state where even debating politics in schools, colleges and universities is not allowed; alternate voices, as all Kashmiris know, do not dare to come up and if they do, they do not survive. The fact that just 4 of the 517 independent alternate voices who contested won justifies that. If people wanted altenate voices, why did they not vote them to power? The major share of seats were, as was expected, won by the dynasties (NC, Congress, PDP) </p>
<blockquote><p>
The reason why Delhi has fewer candidates and independents could have to do with the greater bottlenecks to entry and a domination of political space by two fairly well functioning parties.</p></blockquote>
<p>You presume the existence of bottlenecks in Delhi but not in Kashmir! The political space of Kashmir is as much dominated by major, honest to Delhi, parties than the likes of Geelani, as it is in Delhi or the other states of India.</p>
<blockquote><p>
To be fair, the picture presented by mainstream media is that the increased turnout is because of a concern with local issues. A belief that even if the larger problems of independence or civil liberties isn’t solved, there is a possibility of getting running water.</p></blockquote>
<p>That might have been the case for a percentage of the population – but how at all can you justify elections when the <a href="http://www.dawn.com/2008/11/15/op.htm#1" rel="nofollow">brains in Delhi</a> and <a href="http://kafila.org/2008/12/31/army-wanted-abdullah-whos-surprised/" rel="nofollow">brawns in Kashmir</a> seem to decide who wins, even if we ignore the very core of the Kashmir problem &#8211; that of a desire for &#8216;azadi.&#8217; however difficult it may be to define &#8216;azadi&#8217; but it sure does not mean continuing to live with India. Some of the candidates are already crying of being used as <a href="http://www.kashmirobserver.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=337:losers-front-cries-foul-in-polls-&amp;catid=2:local-news&amp;Itemid=3" rel="nofollow">tissue papers</a>!</p>
<blockquote><p>
Finally, there is overwhelming evidence of there being compulsion to vote but is there any evidence of these elections are being rigged (like the ones in the 80s).</p></blockquote>
<p>Elections are rigged only when to a large extent they are held freely and fairly and the master chefs in Delhi fear ‘alternate’ voices – as they did in 1987. When you compel someone to vote, you do that not in an attempt to install a democratically elected government but in an effort to justify your presence where you should not be at all. Musharrf was voted to power in an referendum in Pakistan, as are many other dictators- that is not because he could not stay in power, but just because he needs to flash the image of ‘democracy’ throughout the world, and then the debate whether the dictator should be there at all subsidises and a new debate takes place. That is what happened to Kashmir. If it were not the elections, perhaps even I would still be writing about the protests that stormed Kashmir a few months ago.<br />
Sometime back, the National Conference, <a href="http://www.risingkashmir.com/index2.php?option=com_content&amp;do_pdf=1&amp;id=9254" rel="nofollow">ruled out any alliance</a>, even though <a href="http://kashmirmedia.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/sachin-pilot-farooqs-son-in-law-strengthening-the-family/" rel="nofollow">preparations</a> were being carried out for that a long time ago and we already knew who the <a href="http://www.dawn.com/2008/11/15/op.htm#1" rel="nofollow">Chief Minister</a> would be, that is rigging of elections in Kashmir.</p>
<blockquote><p>
For the entire exercise to be a sham, it would require almost everyone in public life to be part of the IB conspiracy.</p></blockquote>
<p>You would need to have lived in Kashmir to understand what living there means. The fear instilled through years of oppression can get many things done from a people and the elections being hardly the toughest. Mufi Sayeed <a href="http://www.kashmirobserver.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=337:losers-front-cries-foul-in-polls-&amp;catid=2:local-news&amp;Itemid=3" rel="nofollow">claims that</a> the numbers were out before the polling had even begun. Lastly, I think we of all people should be cautious of how representative bloggers are of anything but themselves.<br />
I wish you think the same about our &#8216;elected&#8217; leaders in Kashmir as well. A lo</p>
<p>A lot about these elections will become known in time to come, but that won&#8217;t effect any change &#8211; a government is installed for years to come! A look at the <a href="http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pSIzKHnmdw26NZKpEqYUXeA" rel="nofollow">stats</a> also provides an interesting outlook on the exercise called &#8216;elections&#8217; held in Kashmir.</p>
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		<title>By: lazybug</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4509</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lazybug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ac: Wah wah! Wah wah!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ac: Wah wah! Wah wah!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: basimamin</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4490</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[basimamin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That 62% of Kashmiris voted in the 2008 elections is a hard fact. So say that they did it to embrace the Indian democratic system, however, is ridiculous.

Had people in Kashmir not voted in such huge number, nothing would have changed. Some political party would have come to power, a new government would have been established, a democratic set up would stilllll have been followed.

So how on earth does their voting or abstaining from it flag a victory for the Indian democracy?

Bye the way, Kashmiris did refrain from voting in the two previous elections. Did anything change. No. Will anything change, now, that they have. Indeed NO!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That 62% of Kashmiris voted in the 2008 elections is a hard fact. So say that they did it to embrace the Indian democratic system, however, is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Had people in Kashmir not voted in such huge number, nothing would have changed. Some political party would have come to power, a new government would have been established, a democratic set up would stilllll have been followed.</p>
<p>So how on earth does their voting or abstaining from it flag a victory for the Indian democracy?</p>
<p>Bye the way, Kashmiris did refrain from voting in the two previous elections. Did anything change. No. Will anything change, now, that they have. Indeed NO!</p>
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		<title>By: ac</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4488</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This conspirational post refers to Kashmir and India as though they were two different countries. Jannat ki hakikat to sabko maloom hain Ghalib, lekin dil behlanay ke liye khayal achcha hain!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conspirational post refers to Kashmir and India as though they were two different countries. Jannat ki hakikat to sabko maloom hain Ghalib, lekin dil behlanay ke liye khayal achcha hain!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rohit</title>
		<link>http://kafila.org/2008/12/27/oranges-in-kashmir-2008-elections-from-a-kashmiri-bloggers-perspective/#comment-4462</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rohit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kafila.org/?p=1765#comment-4462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I share some of your skepticism about how democratic elections with such an overwhelming military presence can be I am a little surprised by your reading of the increased number of candidates and political parties. The rise number of candidates, particularly independents and the new political parties could equally have something to do with a disgust for established parties and a desire to provide alternate voices. It would be interesting to see how many non mainstream candidates manage to win. The BSP&#039;s presence is hardly an IB conspiracy, Maywati is also contesting seats in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu where she barely registers a presence.

The reason why Delhi has fewer candidates and independents could have to do with the greater bottlenecks to entry and a domination of political space by two fairly well functioning parties. 

To be fair, the picture presented by mainstream media is that the increased turnout is because of a concern with local issues. A belief that even if the larger problems of independence or civil liberties isn&#039;t solved, there is a possibility of getting running water. 

Finally, there is overwhelming evidence of there being compulsion to vote but is there any evidence of these elections are being rigged (like the ones in the 80s). Is there some  of political choice to be made between the PDP, NC and the Congress, who seem share a difficult relationship with each other. For the entire exercise to be a sham, it would require almost everyone in public life to be part of the IB conspiracy. 

Lastly, I think we of all people should be cautious of how representative bloggers are of anything but themselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I share some of your skepticism about how democratic elections with such an overwhelming military presence can be I am a little surprised by your reading of the increased number of candidates and political parties. The rise number of candidates, particularly independents and the new political parties could equally have something to do with a disgust for established parties and a desire to provide alternate voices. It would be interesting to see how many non mainstream candidates manage to win. The BSP&#8217;s presence is hardly an IB conspiracy, Maywati is also contesting seats in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu where she barely registers a presence.</p>
<p>The reason why Delhi has fewer candidates and independents could have to do with the greater bottlenecks to entry and a domination of political space by two fairly well functioning parties. </p>
<p>To be fair, the picture presented by mainstream media is that the increased turnout is because of a concern with local issues. A belief that even if the larger problems of independence or civil liberties isn&#8217;t solved, there is a possibility of getting running water. </p>
<p>Finally, there is overwhelming evidence of there being compulsion to vote but is there any evidence of these elections are being rigged (like the ones in the 80s). Is there some  of political choice to be made between the PDP, NC and the Congress, who seem share a difficult relationship with each other. For the entire exercise to be a sham, it would require almost everyone in public life to be part of the IB conspiracy. </p>
<p>Lastly, I think we of all people should be cautious of how representative bloggers are of anything but themselves.</p>
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