Now that Sohail and I have agreed that we both agree on certain basic issues, why are you inciting me to begin a fresh argument again?

And if I respond to you then I am supposed to be at fault? Why don’t you look at your conduct before pointing fingers at me?

You now seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. Part of our commenting policy is to ensure that discussions and posts are about ideas, and do not get monoplised by incessant back and forth about about the personalities of people. No one has labeled you or called you anything, much less a votary of Hindutva. I find it suprising you would say so, because whether it is Sohail on this post, or Naeem in the other post, it is in fact you who have labeled people. It is you who alleged that Naeem was a supporter of the Saudi regime, and you alleged that while you did not make distinctions between religious orthodoxies of various hues Sohail did. So before you start flinging wild accusations against people I would ask you to go back and read what you have written about others on this forum who have thus far been attempting to have a civil conversation with you. Not only is this sort of behaviour ungenerous, its frankly disingenuous.

best
Aarti

Please read me comments again – I didn’t say people follow these Ulemas – in fact since the very first comment, I have been arguing that all the people don’t follow the Ulemas and there are varied voices in every community. What I did say was that a lot of people get swayed by these fatwas – that is, left to themselves they wouldn’t be like the Ulemas want them to be, but momentarily they get swayed by them. And it is this momentary madness that does the damage that the country takes a long time to recover – whether it is a Hindutva brigade riot or a communal tension caused by the fatwas or the Pope’s statement that in this century he would like Asia to become Christian etc.

I have been saying since my very first response to you that we agree on the basic point, but you haven’t been listening, so agitated you have been by my remarks.

what I was trying to point out was that

(A) like all other genealisations, statements that see an entire community as uniform a are wrong.

(B)religious bigots are the same everywhere and that the ulemas and godmen/godwomen serve the same masters

I believe that e focus on the negative role of the Ulemas alone without also talking of similar tendencies among the majority would lead to a lop sided understanding of the precariois situation that we find ourselves in. I have tried to suggest an alternative alternative course of action, different from the prescription of the ulemas, by rebutting their resolutions on women’s education, the question of reservation for women, their demand that girls above 10 follow sharia ets.

I also disagree with the formulation that a large number of muslims follow these ulemas in their secular lives. I should know, i have had deep links with the tribe.

Barring rehetorical debating points that one tries to score in such exchanges, if we are agreed on the basics, then we are on the same table.

And that shows a religious orthodoxy of another kind, which is even more dangerous because it is not so easily apparent as that of the orthodox leaders.

As for my case, I am not much concerned about religiosity and hence, any kind of religious orthodoxy is not going to receive any support from me, no matter from what religion. You can call me by whatever name you like, it doesn’t concern me and won’t change my stand. Because I am very clear that selective support or rejection of religious orthodoxy is not the solution of any problem in this world.

As for Daisy’s comment i am not ready to throw in the towel just yet. i am yet to be convinced that “ulemas hold so much power” on a “lot of people”.

Several issues are involved here

What is the measure of Lots of people?

are they, in terms of their proportion to the total muslim population more than the proportion of Hindus that go to, consult and follow the likes of

Ram Dev, Asaram Bapu, Amritaanadmai Amma, Mata Nirmala Devi, Satya sai Baba and a horde of others, who organise, meditation camps, satsangs, pravachan sessions and such like.

The question that needs to asked is why is Ramdev on every channely other day.

he question that needs to be asked is aren’t these people akin to the ulemas, both in terms of their following and interms of the antediluvian ideas that they propound.

The question that needs to be asked is why aren’t these demi gods and godesses ever singled out for what they are doing?

the other question that needs to be asked is why are the votaries of Hindutva on television 24X7 and those who stand for secular values given such short shrift.

These questions need to be asked with greater urgency because the opinions of many bigots from among these are incresingly being accepted as opinions of Hindus per se. And that in my view is far more dangerous because Hindus are 85 % of this country’s population and those who claim to speak for them can wreak havoc on this land, as they have done in Ayodhya and in Gujarat and in Maliana and in countless other places including Malegaon.

I am not for even an instance suggessting that similar questions need not be directed at the Ulemas, my piece is one effort in that direction and there are many others asking these questions, go to the url link below to see what some of them are saying

http://www.facebook.com//note.php?note_id=196500205717&comments=

And as for excommunication that takes place in the name of Caste is excommunication from religion as far as Hinduism is concerned. For a hindu without a caste is only someone who has a white skin and has taken on a Hindu sounding name and goes around selling Hare Krishna literature on street corners. These “” HINDUS by choice”" are not part of Hindu Society. A hindu is born into a caste and when he is barred from the caste he is out of the pale. No brahmin will perform any ritual for people who are out castes.

So let us not delude ourselves. Let us argue that not only Ulemas but also all manner of god men, god women and such other charlatans should not be given so much bhav in a country that does not tire of proclaiming its democratic, moden state status.

I have been arguing all along that the Ulemas should not be given so much of prominence and their fatwas should not be taken so seriously as to build one’s democratic standpoints on its basis, so I don’t see how my argument is different from yours.

The practice of excommunication is essentially an Indian construct and one sees it everyday in practice in the villages of west UP and Haryana where young hindus marrying out of their castes are excommunicated along with their families and even forced to leave their villages.

as for muslims visiting the deoband web site to seek guidence in matters spiritual or secular, their is no dearth of gullible people like this in all faiths, witness the millions who rubbed their nails together for months together, because a so called
yogi had told them that this will lead to hair growing on their bald pates. go to the samagams and satsangs organised by the likes of asa ram bapu and you will find thousands seeking guidance from these self proclaimed bhagwans, the faith healers christian prechers pander to the same sentiments of the gullible.

so please do not present this as something unique to the islamic faith. every body has a right to behave stupidly, and many excercise that right without prejudice to caste, creed , faith or gender.

and finally one must be a little carefull about generalisations like” A LOT OF PEOPLE DO GET INFLUENCED BY THESE FATWAS” what is the basis of this broad generalisation. Where is the data who has conducted the reserach and what is the sample size. The only generalisation that is true is the one that states that ” ALL GENERALISATIONS ARE WRONG”. How would you react to the statement that all the whites are christians or that all hindus are vegetarians, you would immidiately react and reject both assertions, why don’t you use the same sense of discrimination when it comes to muslims

To complicate matters further, a lot of people do get influenced by these fatwas – if you go to the Deoband website, you’ll see people actually write to them to ask about whether the most mundane affairs of daily life are Islamically allowed or not. In fact, someone had asked them this question about Vande Mataram in April this year and Deoband advised them exactly what they said on 2nd of Nov. This query and its reply are on their website, dated in April. There is another query on that website which asks whether a Muslim should respect all religions as equal paths leading to God and the answer was no, respecting all religions is unislamic or something to that effect. You can comprehend the implications of this.

Left to themselves, these people wouldn’t think the way an orthodox school wants them to think, but when they hear these fatwas, they get swayed by them. A lot of them have the fear that they may be excommunicated from Islam if they don’t follow suit. On the other hand, there are also people who oppose these fatwas. So, the people who want or do not want something in a democracy is a lot more complicated issue than simply going by the command of any religious leader. I think we both agree on this.

As for the “intellectual academic”, that was meant for Nivedita Menon who is in academics.

I am suggesting that all Muslims “as people belonging to a group” do not have the same opinion on almost anything. and because they have different opinions, there can not be one spokesperson for all the muslims.

for example even in matters spiritual, a majority of Indian muslims, venerate one sufi or the other, despite deoband being avowedly opposed to the practice. now those who venerate the sufis are not likely to fall over each other in following a deobandi fatwa. If the schisms are so deep in matters of faith, can muslims have a uniformity of opinions on the issue of singing, Vande Matram or Anything else, or on issues of educating the girl child, or going to get educated in govet run or privately managed institutes.

As a responsible citizen of a democracy one should not play into the hands of the orthodox religious leaders, rather see what the people of that group think, if only they are not controlled by their orthodox leaders.

This post above itself mentions the other objectionable fatwas issues along with this one – such as those related to women’s education. If this school of orthodox Ulemas can issue such fatwas which are harmful by the admission of the writer of this post, then I don’t see why only one fatwa of this group of Ulema should receive a sensitive support in the name of democracy – without even seriously examining what the people of that group are thinking if they are not influenced by the orthodox fatwas.

Issues such as test of patriotism in a democracy etc don’t figure in their discussions. I think it makes sense to interact closely with the common believing Muslim population and take into account what the beilieving Muslims think, if they are not influenced by the fatwas of orthodox Ulemas.

In fact singing the praise of the mother is very much in line with the spirit of Islam – there is a verse in Quran that says that Jannat (Paradise) exists at the feet of the mother. Looking from this angle, Islam expects the Muslims to respect and praise their mother.